Understanding Sleep Disorders: When Napping Helps and When It Hurts

If we are getting adequate sleep, then we wouldn't actually be needing to nap. So if we are needing to nap on a regular basis, then it's probably a sign that we're not getting sufficient quality or quantity sleep.

We speak with Dr Jen Walsh director of the Center for Sleep Science in the School of Human Sciences at UWA.

For the past 20 years, Dr Walsh has focused her career on the physiology of sleep, investigating the causes of and treatments for sleep disorders, including obstructive sleep apnea and insomnia. 

To find out more about how a better night's sleep can assist your overall health and wellbeing visit www.sleep.hif.com.au

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HIF acknowledges the traditional owners and custodians of the land on which this podcast is produced. We pay our respects to Elders, past, present and emerging, and to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. The following episode contains general information and discussion about sleep treatments and advice and is intended for informational purposes.

Jen Walsh

If we are getting adequate sleep, then we wouldn't actually be needing to nap. So if we are needing to nap on a regular basis, then it's probably a sign that we're not getting sufficient quality or quantity sleep.

Host:

 Today we're speaking with Dr. Jen Walsh, Director of the Center for Sleep Science at UWA's School of Human Sciences and a senior research fellow at the WA Sleep Disorders Research Institute.

With a background in exercise physiology, Jen has spent the last 20 years researching sleep physiology and a passionate advocate when it comes to sleep science and equipping people with knowledge to optimise their sleep.

So welcome, Jen. I am so excited to be speaking with you today about sleep and your research. And in particular, I believe HIF research has found that most Australians tend to nap at least once a week. So I'd love to hear your views on naps as part of a healthy sleep regimen. 

 Jen Walsh

 Yeah, so look, I'm really excited to be talking to you about this. Napping is a topic that is close to my heart.and I am absolutely pro-naps. However, I should point out that if we're getting adequate sleep, then we wouldn't actually be needing to nap. So if we are needing to nap on a regular basis, then it's probably a sign that we're not getting sufficient quality or quantity sleep. However, most of us aren't actually getting adequate sleep. 

So most of us... do find that maybe we could be making up for our sleep loss. Maybe we need a performance boost throughout the day. A lot of us will reach for things like sugar or coffee, things to pep us up a little bit. 

There are other strategies as well, things like exercise. We know that they boost performance too, but napping, I think, is a better solution because I feel like all the others are really just a band-aid to the underlying problem, which is that we're not getting adequate sleep. 

So yeah, I think napping is fantastic. However, we need to bear in mind the reason that we're napping. 

Host: 

Yeah, I love that. And I wonder if you might be able to maybe help us define what a nap is. So what do most Australians consider a nap? And is that, I guess, the right, from a clinical perspective?

Jen Walsh

The right view of a nap and I guess what I'm asking is, is our view of naps actually healthy? Yeah, so a nap would be anything that's not a sort of, I guess it's sleep outside of our main sleep period and I think most of us see that, see a nap as, you know, we define it as that, you know, an additional sleep. However, some people will have a nap that is, you know,minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, or they might have a nap, which is an hour or two hours or three hours. 

And I think when they're getting to be really quite long, then we need to be thinking of them as perhaps not a nap, but as actually asleep. However, if most of, I mean, the HIV data actually shows from the survey shows that most of us, at least 50% of us are.

Actually, recognising that a nap is less than 30 minutes and that is really the sweet spot for napping, assuming that we are not really sleep deprived. So if we've had a really short nocturnal sleep or main sleep period then we might need to have a longer nap. But most of us are having a reasonable sort of main sleep duration and we just need to be making up.

A little bit of sleep and so that's where the short nap comes into it. 

Host: 

Okay, so we saw a lot come through our studies about people being quite consistently tired. Do naps actually help us recharge? 

Jen Walsh

Yeah, there is so much evidence around this, which is why I'm so pro-napping. That yeah, I mean people who do nap often feel the benefits. Some people don't actually feel that

benefit and I'll talk about perhaps the reasons why they're not feeling the benefit in a moment, but what we know is that yes, it boosts our performance on so many levels. 

So we know that it boosts our cognitive performance, so it helps us concentrate better, it helps us learn better, our memory's better, on so many cognitive levels it's really beneficial. Physical, yes, it boosts our physical performance as well.

And in fact, there's a lot of research around athletes and the benefits of napping for athletes. 

And so we know that it does things like improve our speed, our reaction times, our motor function, strength, endurance. So yeah, physical performance is also improved and so is emotional performance. And I think everyone out there with children will know this exquisitely. There is, and there's a lot of evidence for this as well that if our children don't get enough sleep, they don't emotionally regulate very well. 

So yeah, look, there's definitely a lot of, you know, a lot of pros for naps in improving our performance. And yeah, repaying back some of that sleep debt.If, if that's the reason that we're napping. 

Host:

Yeah, I completely agree. I've got two children myself. So I know what it's like when they don't get enough sleep. And generally, if they don't get enough sleep, I don't get enough sleep. 

Jen Walsh

That's right. I mean, the evidence is that, you know, children, you know, don't emotionally regulate, but there's also evidence in adults as well, that we don't emotionally regulate as well either. And how could we reframe the nap as a positive part of our life? What?

Host: 

What can we do to get our employers and our employees to be more transparent around the need to recharge and even think about incorporating NAPs into a healthy work-life balance? 

Jen Walsh

Yeah, so this was one of the things that came out of the HIV survey that has saddened me in a way because 15% of people reported that they had sneaky NAPs during work time.

So, I mean, I think as you've heard, there's a lot of evidence for the benefits of napping. And I'm talking about short naps, but people feel the need for whatever reason to just sneak off and have a nap whilst they're working, rather than being open about it. Some of them, there were certainly reports of people napping with the awareness and...support of their supervisors. 

But the fact that there's a large number of people who they feel that stigma around the need to nap or to sleep. I think we're slowly breaking down that stigma that sleep is for the weak. And we're learning that sleep actually is an incredible superpower.

And for whatever reason, we're not always getting an adequate amount of sleep. And sometimes when we're at work or if we're not at work, we're just at home, whatever it is, sometimes we need to have a nap. And like I said, it gives us such a huge performance boost. Hopefully, people, employers will...learn this and we'll be aware if we're slowly teaching people about the benefits of sleep and napping and hopefully a nap perhaps will become embedded into people's workday. 

Host: 

Wouldn't that be amazing? 

Yeah it happens in some cultures. Yes is it the Spanish,

Jen Walsh

Some Asian countries as well. 

Host: 

And should everyone nap? Maybe you could touch on, you know, what about people with sleep disorders? And I guess if naps aren't an option, what would be your first step to help them with sleep issues? 

Jen Walsh

Yeah, so I think for this, we really need some quite tailored advice for people with various sleep disorders and even...for say two people with the same sleep disorder, they might need different recommendations in terms of whether they should or shouldn't be napping. In general, people with conditions like circadian rhythm sleep disorders, so I guess one of the most common ones of these that we see is adolescents, for example, that they go, they'll often tend to want to be going to sleep really quite late.

You know, in, you know, one, two, three in the morning, and then sleeping quite late in the day. So people with that kind of sleep disorder or people with insomnia, napping wouldn't really be recommended because it's going to make it difficult for them to potentially fall asleep later that night or to stay asleep. So, but you know, there are exceptions.

And again, this is where getting specialist advice would be beneficial. And then there are other sleep disorders like narcolepsy, for example. And this is where people have a really strong or irresistible urge to sleep and they're excessively sleepy during the day, despite having a good sleep at night time. And in these people, napping may be beneficial, they may be needing to schedule the nap and have that at the same time every day or maybe at multiple time points throughout the day. 

So yeah, I would, if anyone thinks that they have a sleep disorder, if they know they've got a sleep disorder, I would encourage them to speak to their sleep specialist, whether that's a sleep physician, whether that's a sleep psychologist, and ask them about...

whether they should or shouldn't be napping and the time of day that they should be napping, if it is a yes to the nap. 

Midroll: 

This episode of Sleep Easy with HIF is brought to you by the Health Insurance Fund of Australia. What if your health insurer gave you the freedom to choose? 

Host:

And do you think you could give us maybe your top three tips for napping and also maintaining a good sleep? 

Jen Walsh

Yeah, so firstly, keep it short. So I said earlier that less than 30 minutes is ideal. And the reason that it's ideal is because if we sleep longer than 30 minutes, then we're more likely to go into a very deep sleep. And if we wake up from that deep sleep, we feel quite groggy. It's called sleep inertia. 

We feel quite groggy and sluggish. And we actually, we know that people don't as well when they're in that period of feeling quite bad. Which is why a lot of the evidence shows that the ideal sleep duration is somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes. Some people, if they're excessively tired, will also go into that deep sleep a little bit earlier. So it might only be after 20 minutes that they'll go into the deep sleep. So if people are waking up feeling groggy from a short nap, then I would encourage them to cut their nap even shorter. So set an alarm. 

Absolutely, you need to always set an alarm for your nap so you don't sleep too long and go into that deep sleep. But generally short 20 to 30 minutes is going to be ideal for most people. The second tip, not too close to bedtime. So if you're wanting to go to bed at your regular time and fall asleep without much delay, then you need to be tired enough to do that. And if you've just had a nap, whether it's short or long, then you're less likely to be tired. And there's lots of reasons for that. But yes, so keeping the nap earlier in the day, not too close to bedtime is ideal. It's a bit like... snacking before a meal really you wouldn't do that because it curbs your appetite. 

It's the same with sleep. 

Host:

Yeah, very interesting. 

Jen Walsh

And then the next one or the final one I would say and I touched on this before if you're doing everything right and you think that you're getting enough sleep and but you're needing to nap every day then I think you need to consider seeing someone about your sleep because we should be, if we think we're getting, we need to be getting enough sleep in our main sleep period ideally, rather than needing to nap every day. 

It's suggestive of perhaps someone not getting adequate sleep at night or not getting adequate quality sleep at night. 

Host:

Yeah, that makes sense. 

And is there anything else that you think people should know when it comes to napping or sleep quality, getting enough sleep that you'd like to add? 

Jen Walsh

Oh, there are so many things. So I won't get started on all of them. Our bodies love routine. So yeah, improving sleep, the key to it, I think for most people is to make sure that we're having a good routine. 

Host:

Yeah, amazing. So can you tell us a little bit about what a good bedtime routine looks like? 

Jen Walsh

Generally, it's going to be different for everyone, but doing something that is relaxing for you, that's what you find relaxing before bed is going to be beneficial. But for a lot of people, we know that things like, you know, having a meal and having a shower, going to the toilet, brushing your teeth and then doing something relaxing before going to bed is that's what we would call the bedtime routine. 

And we know that the bedtime routine is really powerful. People with children are probably aware of it, that if they have a bedtime routine, it gets them ready to know, you know, it gets them knowing that they're about to be going to bed and they're going to go to sleep. And in fact, there's a lot of evidence from studies on children who have bedtime routines and how beneficial it is for those children that they sleep better, they have less wake periods during the night. 

And if they do wake up, the wake periods are shorter and they need less parental interaction to get them to go back to sleep. And so we know that bedtime routines are really beneficial.

But even things like, you know, using for people who use earplugs or, or eye mask, that get the process of putting the earplugs in and putting the eye mask on just as they're about to turn the light out. That's part of the bedtime routine. So it's part of your brain getting ready. It's winding down. It's knowing that, okay, I'm, I'm about to go to sleep now. And we know that.

Those routines can be really powerful. And if people don't have those routines, not always, but that can make it a bit harder for people to fall asleep. So yeah, I guess the bedtime routine is very specific to an individual, but it can be really powerful.

Host:

 Yeah, and I guess, you know, the better quality sleep you had, as you said, the less naps. You should need technically, right? 

Jen Walsh

Exactly. Yeah. 

Host: 

And finally, what is a Nappuccino? 

Jen Walsh

So Nappuccinos are pretty cool. It's combining two performance enhancement tools, I guess, a sleep and a nap. Um, that both of them we know have benefits for improving our performance. So if you have, if you feeling a bit tired, a bit sluggish, usually it happens after lunch for most people. What you can do is have some caffeine, whether it's in a coffee form or some other form, then you can go and have your 20 or 30 minute nap.

And what happens is by the time you finish your nap, because you've set your alarm to wake up after 20 or 30 minutes, by the time you've done that, the caffeine has kicked in and you get a performance boost from both the nap and the caffeine. 

Host: 

Wow. 

Jen Walsh

That's what we call a nappuccino. 

Host: 

Caffeine before the nap. Before the nap, yeah. Wow, that's interesting.

Jen Walsh

You wouldn't have it too early because then the caffeine will keep you alert and awake and you might find it difficult to fall asleep before your nap. So you have it just before you go and have the nap. 

Host:

I'm going to try that. That sounds incredible.

End Roll:

The content provided on this podcast is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any sleep related concerns or questions, we encourage you to seek advice from a licensed health care professional or sleep specialist based on your specific circumstances.