Beyond the Badge of Honour: Changing Workplace Attitudes Towards Sleep

In this episode, we explore the often misguided workplace culture that treats sleep deprivation as a badge of honour. 

We speak with HIF CEO, Justin James and corporate sleep and performance specialist Amanda Slinger to discuss the importance of shifting attitudes towards prioritising sleep for better health, productivity, and overall well-being. 

Learn how creating a healthier sleep culture in the workplace can lead to happier, more effective employees.

To find out more about how a better night's sleep can assist your overall health and wellbeing visit www.sleep.hif.com.au

Transcript

00:00

HIF acknowledges the traditional owners and custodians of the land on which this podcast is produced. We pay our respects to Elders, past, present and emerging, and to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. The following episode contains general information and discussion about sleep treatments and advice and is intended for informational purposes.

00:25

We do find too that the study has clearly identified that women in the workplace probably suffer worse sleep than men. And I think workplace policies need to embrace why that is and help. So I do think that the hybrid working arrangements do allow for more time, or less time spent in what we would call sort of non-productive travel, et cetera, to be dedicated to other things that help the individual.

00:57

So welcome everyone. Today we're speaking with HIF CEO Justin James and Amanda Slinger. And we're gonna be discussing sleep working. Aussies are falling asleep on the job, it seems, with many in sleep deficit, especially on work days. So welcome Amanda and Justin. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you. Thanks. Amanda, I'd love to start by asking you a bit of a question.

01:25

from the get-go is poor sleep, do you believe, putting employees at risk and why does it matter so much? Well, let's quantify it first. So in terms of the data that we're looking at, we know that two out of three adults in Australia experience at least one sleep problem. And a sleep problem can be anything from diagnosed sleep disorder, which, you know, sleep apnea.

01:51

insomnia, parasomnias, many different sorts of sleep disorders, but it also includes difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, or just waking up feeling fatigued or squeezing the time that we give to sleep. So there's a lot happening there and the recent HIV sleep index shows that only half or over half of working Australians say that they've turned up to work exhausted over the

02:20

data point I wanted to refer to was that nearly three in ten Aussies have faked a sickie because they were too tired to work. I'm certainly putting my hand up. That's me, I faked a sickie, not in the last year, but I've certainly done it when I was younger. And so I think, you know, whilst these stats may not be surprising, you know, it's a stat, we know that Australians are sleeping poorly, but it just reinforces, you know, how many of us aren't getting enough sleep.

02:48

and not getting the sleep that we need. So in terms of why does it matter, the impact of fatigue on workplace safety is really where I started my interest in sleep. And that's not a new talking point. When I was working in underground mining, we were exploring ways that we could reduce fatigue and its impact on accidents. And that was 25 years ago, or maybe a little bit longer. So...

03:17

You know, sleep deprivation isn't just about affecting our personal safety, there's so much more to it. And the research consistently shows that there's a lot of aspects of our personal wellbeing, our performance at work and our health. So everything from brain health and many, many different aspects that we need to consider. But it's pretty not just employees at risk, it's also the teams that they work in and the organisations that they're working for. So yes, absolutely.

03:45

Amazing. And Justin, how concerned should employers be about some of this data? Well, it's concerning that employees feel that they need to take sick days to recharge the batteries due to a lack of sleep. And of course, you know, there's downstream productivity issues with that. But I think the most important thing is the health of the employee or the individual, notwithstanding, you know, how that affects other team members as well in the workplace, but the individual themselves.

04:13

feeling like that's the answer or that's a bandaid to the problem is that's a concern. And I think corporate Australia needs to be very aware that this is probably the tip of the iceberg in understanding what people think and feel about how sleep affects them in the workplace. And of course, not just the workplace, but at home and in other areas. And Amanda, what would you say are some of the practical tools that employers and employees

04:43

can put in place to really support positive sleep health? Great question. For employers, the way that I look at it, it's really looking at critically, inspecting their work practices. How can work be better designed to support not just sleep but rest? Because what we do in daylight hours affects how well we sleep at night. And that's something that's really important. So the conversation should be about rest and sleep.

05:12

And we've now got legislation on the right to disconnect. And while that's a legal term, I much prefer the predictable time off that phrase, because it really is more positively frames the time that's scheduled and respected. So it's looking at work practices, everything from predictable time off. So if I'm working till five o'clock, I work till five o'clock and I'm able to switch off after that, we're switching off on weekends.

05:40

And that can be supported by, and that's just one example, but it can be supported by guidelines or policies that companies can put in place, such as out of hours emails. So what's our policy on sending emails at 11 o'clock at night or on the weekend? And we've all experienced that. And I can remember, this is as crazy as it gets, when, and also how old I am, when the BlackBerry first came in.

06:04

And a friend of mine, her husband was a stockbroker and he was so proudly showing me his Blackberry. Oh my God, it's amazing, it's amazing. And I'm like, well, why would I want one? He goes, oh my God, you can get your emails at home. And my response was seriously horror. Like why on earth would I want my emails at home? And fast forward to today, and my emails are with me in the bathroom, wherever I go, it's just crazy how quickly things change. So it's...

06:33

It's just having that predictable time off and having, you know, that discussion with your supervisors and your managers and your employees about how can we design the work better? What can we put in place? And it's also being creative, looking, you know, outside and globally at what other companies are doing. I read recently one company in Europe have got a very hard switch off time and their desks automatically raise off the floor.

07:03

Now that brings about a few safety risks in my mind, but it's just really about being creative and what can we do to really help people switch off? And then the other thing is sleep education. That's something which I'm really big on when we don't learn about sleep health at school, we learn about diet, nutrition, we learn about exercise, but sleep health is just not on the radar. My long-term goal is that it is on primary school curriculum one day. May not be in my lifetime, but I really believe that

07:31

It starts with young children, young children then can influence, well that influences how well they sleep as teens and then that influences how well they sleep as adults. But at the moment, that's not happening. So where do we go for knowledge around sleep? If we are having trouble sleeping or we're just curious about how well we're sleeping. We go to the internet and we listen to influencers who often give us out not great advice and it can be overwhelming. There's a lot of conflicting information out there.

08:01

So sleep health education, sort of bringing in programs, whether it's in an onboarding program, but certainly those sort of things can really, really help. And in terms of employees, well, I really start with getting curious about sleep. You know, there's all the sleep hygiene, health hygiene tips and tricks and biohacks, which, you know, they can help, but I think it comes down to what is a priority for you and looking really realistically at are you sleeping well?

08:29

Are you sleeping well or are you just pushing through the fatigue because all the motivation and energy and excitement and caffeine can really mask those subtle symptoms and signs that we're not actually sleeping well. So be curious about your sleep is the first thing. And then start to look at how well you're sleeping. So sleep tracking I think is a great thing. Not so much every day or every day for the rest of your life but certainly for a period of a couple of weeks.

08:56

And in the old days, we used to use a sleep diary, which was just a A4 piece of paper where you'd write down what time you went to bed, what time you fell asleep, what time you woke up. And interestingly, that is very accurate when compared to a in-lab polysomnogram, which is the sleep study. So they're still great, but a lot of people have sleep trackers and they're not so accurate at predicting deep sleep and REM sleep. But nonetheless, it's still...

09:24

raises the profile for sleep and also it helps to really identify how long you're sleeping for. So they're very accurate for that. So getting some sort of metrics around how much sleep do I actually need personally because it's not between seven and nine. There's a figure there that's your ideal and how you know how effective is my sleep. So there's lots of things there without going into all the tips and tricks.

09:48

Yeah, I just think that besides the sort of tools and legislative changes that come into a place, you know, that we in Australia sort of are adjusting to, I think culture plays a big role and you know, we sort of understand napping and how siestas and similar things in the European culture plays a role in how people, you know, get access to downtime. I know when I did some work in Shanghai when I was working for Bupa.

10:16

and we visited some officers there at a particular time where everyone at their desk literally sort of folds out into a live flat from their chair and takes a nap for 45 to an hour. That's after having eaten or before. So it is a dedicated time. And we just don't have the sort of cultural expectations in the workplace in Australia. And whilst I think rules are good to guide

10:43

workplaces and employees on how to sort of be better. I think culture plays a big role too, and we've got a long way to go. That said, it's clear too that napping, as a form of the ability to sort of just recharge or recoup is still common in Australia. And we know the stats show that up to 70%, I think of Aussies take naps and.

11:10

and probably 20% in the workplace for small periods of time. So it's definitely something that I think we should be talking about not allowing a taboo to be centered around it. And I'll finish by saying, there's far too often a reference in Australian corporate life that says, what's keeping you up at night as a badge of honor or as an idea that you're working hard or doing your job properly.

11:35

And I think that's a real shame that we allow that sort of stupidity to occur. I know in recent years, I've certainly said, I don't have a problem sleeping at night because of what's happening at work and nor should I. And I think, you know, if we were able to turn that, you know, cultural problem in the workplace in Australia on its head and start to sort of embracing the fact that you don't need to stay awake all night to be good at your job.

12:03

And you know, there is no badge on for saying that you're worrying about something that, that, you know, clearly is not going to be dealt with whilst you're in bed. Absolutely. Some really great points there, Justin. And I know that sleep has been a key focus on the agenda for HIV for many years now. Why is that? We think, you know, all roads lead to greater health and the primary highway is sleep. And we feel that, you know, through all the research and advocacy that's, you know, it's been done around all

12:32

symptoms of poor health, you know, sleep seems to be the common denominator and all the genesis. It certainly creates problems when you are already unwell and you don't get sleep, but not having sleep generally leads to the problems in many cases too. So we think it's a fundamental to good health and we, as a health insurer and a not-for-profit, wanna make sure our members and our communities have the best access to quality health. And we think, you know, doing

13:01

and understanding more around what benefits sleep has and how to get the best out of your sleep patterns is really important. So yeah, we have definitely played a long-term role and we will continue to. Our index shows what we probably all knew to be the case, although some of the stats are more startling. And we continue to work with many experts in everything that we do to sort of add more.

13:28

tools, tricks, and just experience and understanding. And Amanda's an example of someone that we work with as well. So good to hear. And Amanda, can you speak to some of the benefits around having more open conversations about sleep in the workplace? If I start with, if you're going to work tired, underslept or fatigued for whatever reasons, whether it's chronic insomnia or it's just a poor night's sleep, the best outcome for you and your organisation is going to be...

13:58

having a conversation about sleep. But that's only gonna happen if the employee feels supported and that the organization values sleep, that they've demonstrated they value sleep. Like for example, HIA for what Justin's just said, and that they recognize that sleep is really perfect because I think that's something, it's not always your fault that you haven't slept well. So taking that away from the stigma is something that's outside of my control often.

14:27

And also, if the employee knows that the organization can offer support as well, maybe it's just someone to talk to about having a poor night's sleep and sharing that so that the work can be rescheduled or maybe just adjusted. But certainly just raising the profile of sleep in the conversations is so important. And when we have sleep in those conversations in the workplace, it helps to elevate the importance of sleep.

14:54

But that stigma is still there. And I think that's also evident in the data that we've just seen from the HIV sleep index around napping and people coming to work and they're not really talking about it. So I think that's something that can really change. However, not all conversations about sleep are equal. And Justin's alluded to this right now. Research shows that what leaders and supervisors, anyone in that sort of supervisory role,

15:23

what they say and do about sleep affects the quality of sleep of their subordinates, which sounds crazy, but it does. It's just this behaviour. So what, you know, if you've got a leader who devalues sleep and encourages employees just to push through versus a leader who uses language that emphasises the importance of sleep and encourages employees to come up for air, that's going to be...

15:50

completely different. So the tone at the top matters, and I know that sounds cliched, but when it comes to sleep, it's really, really critical. So having these open conversations around sleep helps to also bridge the individual experiences that we have, because whilst my experiences of sleep are very different to yours and Justin, there's common ground. Who hasn't experienced poor night's sleep? Who hasn't slept through their alarm and been late for work?

16:18

And we've all experienced the fallout of a poor night's sleep. So, you know, if we can support each other with a shared understanding of the importance of sleep and that you're not alone, I think that's a really important message. If you're sleeping, you know, if you're not sleeping well and you're feeling fatigued, and also what supports available from the organization. So yeah, I think it's great. And even as early as onboarding, like the conversation should be starting.

16:44

when you're onboarding your employees around expectations. And that comes back to what I was saying earlier about policies and guidelines. There's ultimately those conversations when someone's coming into an organization are really integral to the way that they move forward rather than just watching what other people do. Like, oh, everyone in here works back till seven o'clock at night. Actually, no, I was told if I see that that's not the norm and you know, what's that email policy? You know, what's our policy about taking leave?

17:13

those expectations, setting them up upfront early is really important. Yeah, I totally agree, Amanda. And some of the things that I know that HIV is looking at and other progressive companies, so we're certainly not alone. But the flexible work phenomenon, if we can call it that, that is sort of emanated from COVID is still, whilst a little bit controversial in some areas, as everyone wants everyone back to the office. But the nature of sort of getting that balance right.

17:42

between office and home is an important one because it can really lift the health and the productivity of employees and of course the benefits of being in an office environment are all known. But that ability to sort of say we are an organisation that respects that there will be the opportunity to see if that balance can work for you. Everyone's got a different job and it might always be the case but

18:09

You know, there's a lot of organizations that are really getting it right in that mix. And I think that that's something that we need to support and embrace because it's not one all back at the office or all at home. It is really a combination of what the best sort of fit is. And you know, other things like nine day fortnights, the ability to purchase extra annual leave.

18:34

parental leave and all the other things that, like I said, most companies and good progressive companies are working on are important. They're important cultural norms and symbols of support to Amanda's point that if leadership and or if the organisation is saying that from the first day of employment, then it can be believed and people will actually adhere to feeling comfortable in that environment.

19:01

This episode of Sleep Easy with HIF is brought to you by the Health Insurance Fund of Australia. What if your health insurer gave you the freedom to choose? Justin, what do you do for your members and employees to really aid their sleep? Yeah, so for employees we really work alongside the education around sleep. As I said, we work on a hybrid basis of three-two.

19:27

work from home to provide flexibility which alleviates travel time and in some cases the ability to connect and be present for families such as younger children, etc. We do find too that the study has clearly identified that women in the workplace probably suffer worse sleep than men and I think workplace policies need to embrace why that is and help.

19:53

So I do think that the hybrid working arrangements do allow for more time to, or less time spent in what we would call sort of non-productive travel, et cetera, to be dedicated to other things that help the individual. We also have quite significantly, progressive policies around menstrual and menopause leave for women.

20:19

which for an organization that is 70% female like HAF is, and the cohort of people that buy private health insurance is largely 70% female dominated in that process too. So we have to reflect what our members and our employees expect from us. And so from members point of view as well, we certainly focus on how we support new moms, new parents in total.

20:45

So we have Nourish Baby, which is a learning hub that's identifying the best practice sort of techniques to be able to try and navigate that minefield of getting sleep when you're a new parent, which there is no science or guarantee to that. But talking about understanding some of the tips can help at least improve. And I know that in your circumstances, as anyone that's gone before.

21:11

sleep deprivation, particularly with young children, is an alarming factor in poor health. And we know that. So we do also understand, well, what are some of the tenants around good sleep? So it could be about apneas, weight management, and other sort of inputs that create a...

21:37

less than ideal sleeping profile. So we work on programs to assist that as well. And it could even be just, you know, in simple factors like heart, knee, diabetes, all these things having a role too, and how we can address some of those things with the education and support that we provide. And I think the broader community, you know, if we cover sort of off.

22:02

that group as well. You know, we've done this sleep study, so everyone can understand the opportunity to sleep better and not just limited to HOF members or employees. Amanda, did you want to add anything at all at this point? Yeah, I've got so much to say about sleep. I think something which I think gets overlooked often are the people who are suffering from sleep disorders. You know, we know one in five Australians have a diagnosed sleep disorder, but...

22:31

There are so many of those people who are diagnosed but they're not actively seeking treatment. And that's unfortunate because there are some fabulous treatment options and there are emerging treatment options. And the biggest one that people are afraid of is the CPAP machine. I don't want to get diagnosed with sleep apnea. It's gonna have to look like and sound like Darth Vader for the rest of my life. But the CPAP machine itself is-

22:57

become smaller, it's quieter, there are so many different options for the device that you wear on your face, from nasal prongs to full face mask. So, you know, I really would encourage people to go back and revisit the options. But the other part to that is, we've got one in five who are diagnosed. I believe there's an equal number who are undiagnosed, particularly women. Women often go undiagnosed, even when they go to seek a diagnosis, because they often have subclinical symptoms.

23:27

And women often have different symptoms for something like obstructive sleep apnea than men. So if you are concerned that you have potentially a sleep disorder, whether it's insomnia or any of the other sleep disorders, to just be confident, go and seek advice from your doctor. And not just that, ask for a specialist referral because there are so many different types of medical sleep specialists from, you know, we've got dental sleep specialists, respiratory sleep specialists.

23:57

physicians. So it's really knowing that you've got other options to go and seek some specialist support. But my message really is the technology and the emerging treatments are really positive and encouraging. And Justin, was there anything that you would like to add at this point? I echo everything that Amanda said, of course. I think sharing personal experiences too is really important. I remember when I was first married and you know, the thought of having separate bedrooms was like a taboo as well that

24:26

you know, for the benefit of quality sleep, my wife and I thought was a good idea and we lived happily for 20 odd years in that arrangement. And it's not for everyone and I get it, but sharing those experiences, unfortunately I got the better sleep out of that arrangement because she suffered from apnea and asthma. So that meant that whilst we thought that that was solving both our problems,

24:55

The diagnosis though on her, you know, poor sleep profile was really only addressed in more recent years because it was clearly a physiological function that was creating, you know, the poor sleep outcomes. But I think there's, I suppose the opportunity to speak about what people can and families can do to support each other in better sleep outcomes is important too.

25:22

And like I said, I benefited probably more so in the earlier stages, but, you know, it is really important just to be more open-minded. Absolutely. I can just add there with the sleep disorders, you know, insomnia, you know, the gold standard for treatment is cognitive behavioral therapy. And I have this personal belief that, you know, if you're in the US, you know, you

25:49

CBT probably sounds like, wow, it's quite a normal thing for us to all go and get therapy. But in Australia, cognitive behavioral therapy, I feel like it needs a rebranding. It needs to, because the people, I just aren't seeking it out. And I think it just needs to be demystified. And it's really just, you know, changing. It's not just, it's a very in-depth treatment option, but it's about changing our beliefs and ideas about sleep and other things. But.

26:15

Yeah, cognitive behavioral therapy, if you've got insomnia, that is the way to go and try and look past the name. I don't know what your thoughts are Justin about CBT, but yeah, it just sounds like, oh, don't wanna go there. But it's the gold standard universally for insomnia. I think, yeah, I think there's a real reluctance. So again, I'll share a personal story. My current partner of many years is a GP and suffers from significant insomnia.

26:43

and really struggles to see how some of those options would suit her, but has never tried because of preconceived views on all sorts of therapies. But again, she's still in a position where she would say she doesn't sleep anywhere near enough or well enough. And I think, yeah, we've just got to all be open-minded to some of the solutions because there will be a best pathway for each individual. It might not look the same as what everyone else is doing.

27:13

And we shouldn't ignore, yeah, some of the, particularly the practices on counselling that can help. And I think that the other aspect of that is just, and I touched on it earlier very briefly, was just acknowledging how much poor sleep is impacting our lives. Because we do, we just have that human tendency just to push on through, but just to take a step back and just think about

27:42

how it's affecting you. And even for pregnancy, and when women are suffering from poor sleep, well, young parents, not just women, poor sleeping, you've both shared stories there, that it even starts before that. It's when going through pregnancy towards the latter stages of pregnancy, women start to have poor sleep. And then the partner's not sleeping well either, because there's this restless person in the bed with a huge belly. So it's this sort of...

28:09

very subtle change through pregnancy. And then of course, the baby arrives or babies. And it just keeps going, but you just keep pushing through. And the same in a work environment. I see so often people just pushing through this tiredness that becomes fatigue, and then it just pushes through to burnout. And I'm not saying sleep is the complete solution with those challenges, but it can help enormously. That mental health with sleep is foundational.

28:38

And your experience too, you're seeing some of the outputs of that sort of exhaustion in the workplace. It must be troubling, particularly in those workplaces that require fine motor skills or deep concentration or times of concentration, etc. So having only ever worked traditionally in an office environment, either on the couch in more recent times for a couple of days a week or

29:08

There's so many vocations that sleep affect real precise performance and that can't be good. Well, even just the healthcare, it's that sort of high risk industries, whether it's high risk to you and the people that you work with, for example, mining, for example, or factory workers, and that safety element, but it's just so much to it.

29:34

It's not just executives and high achievers and certain occupations, but it's also people making healthcare decisions. So doctors and nurses who we know, you know, I had the experience a couple of weeks ago, I was at a surf carnival watching my 16 year old son surfing. And there was a nurse that arrived off night shift, her fourth night shift in a row. And she said, we got talking about sleep. Of course you can't.

30:02

to me without talking about sleep and she says she gets by in inverted commas with five hours sleep a night or a day and so she'd come off her fourth shift and she was arriving to do some volunteer work which is commendable but you know it's just even the belief you know she's a nurse she should know better you know and it's just this it's challenged so it's people in high-risk jobs whether you're a policeman or you're you know driving people

30:32

there's so many aspects that you can affect your own health and safety and wellbeing and also those of others. Now, I think we've gained some very interesting insights today and I wanna thank you both so much for sharing all the statistics and also personal stories as well. I think that, like you said, Justin, it is all about how we share stories and how we're open with each other and it's wonderful to hear.

30:58

The content provided on this podcast is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any sleep-related concerns or questions, we encourage you to seek advice from a licensed healthcare professional or sleep specialist based on your specific circumstances.